Navigating Fear, Social Media Messages & Human Experiences with Jen Grosso

00:00 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Welcome. Welcome, jen. I am so excited to have this conversation with you. Thank you for being here. 

00:05 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
I'm so thrilled to be here with you on this podcast. I love it. 

00:08 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, why don't you start by just telling people a little bit about who you are and what you're up to? 

00:17 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Yeah, so I'm so many things. Right, that list of what you are. So I'm a former attorney-turned-entrepreneur. I've owned a bunch of businesses. I currently my business. We do a lot of consulting. I'm also a former master's athlete. I am one of the gyms that I owned. I became a master's athlete and I was competing in that area, and so that was super fun for me. I'm a speaker. I do speaking on many different topics, including some I think we're going to talk about today. I'm an author. I have lots of things in my background that are lots of fun, so I love that you have so many different things. 

01:04 - Andrea Moore (Host)
It's amazing as someone who have super ADHD, and it's bounced from thing to thing to thing. It's like whenever I hear of someone who's been in the same job, they're like yeah, I've worked in the same job for 40 years. I'm like excuse me, so much anxiety. 

01:19 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Yeah, even in particular being a lawyer, very few people actually leave the law. It's a very small percentage Leave the law. They'll go do things that are related to the law, but very few people do what I did, and when I found out that statistic I was really surprised. I just don't seem to have a problem with switching gears. 

01:40 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, I love that. And what made you leave law? 

01:44 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
It wasn't. It didn't fit. And well, a few things. Not only did it not fit, but it was starting to not fit in a way that it was impacting my health. It was impacting my health physically and it was impacting my health emotionally. And I finally sat there one day and said what am I doing? And I was from a head perspective and a mindset perspective. I had that sunk cost fallacy. Well, I've invested all this time, I've invested all this money. I have to ride this out. And then there was this moment where it clicked no, I don't. I don't have to continue on a path that is clearly hurting me simply because it didn't turn out to be what I expected to, and I have lots of evidence that it's harming me at the same time. 

02:38 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I love that. I love that you bring up the sunk cost fallacy, because I feel like I very much felt that when leaving the clinic as a physical therapist, I'm like I still have student loans I'm paying off, but I couldn't do it anymore. It was not, it was aligned at all yeah. 

02:56 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
And that can be enough. I mean, there were certainly practical considerations, I'm sure for you as well. Oh yes, how do I not stress myself out in terms of the money? But once I made the decision, it was easier to then start lining all of that up. When and how can I pay off these bills? How much money do I have? When can this happen? It wasn't that if it was going to happen, it was the when. Yes, you have to take it work out for me in the best way possible. 

03:24 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I want to highlight something there that I think I'm hearing you say because this is a mistake people make, or I see my clients fall into this trap is you make this decision to maybe leave your job or leave a relationship or move or whatever it might be? And it's just this reminder of you can make the decision and you get to still figure out the details. You don't have to wake up and do it the next day, like you don't have to walk in and quit before getting your ducks in a row. 

03:52 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Yes, absolutely, and I think that there's, especially in the entrepreneur world. There's that glorification of just jump and build your parachute on the way down. And I will tell you, I was guilty at one point of putting up. I'm sure I've put that out on Instagram and I felt good about it at the time, but that wasn't true and I think that, yeah, you don't have to do that. 

04:19 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, and it's kind of different too of what position you're in. Somebody who already has a nice padding right You're not actually building the full parachute versus someone who's like I have no money in the bank and I have three kids to feed Like don't jump without having a parachute. That's a really bad idea. 

04:34 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Yeah, it's OK. It's OK to be practical. And also, I have responsibilities. Yes, the bank doesn't care if I don't pay back my loan. They care, they're going to do what they need to do to make sure I pay my bills. And also, do you have responsibilities, Do you have children, and all of that factors in and that's OK. But the meeting your soul and saying, ok, we're going to do this and we don't have to jump off the cliff to make it happen. 

05:09 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I love that. Yes, exactly Now, speaking of jumping off cliffs here, no, or not jumping off cliffs? One of the reasons I wanted to have you on was to talk about fear. Yes, and because I think it is such a fascinating topic and I think it's one that's really misunderstood and it's one that I wanted to hear from someone who just knows a whole lot more about it, because it's not one that I want to explore more. So I'm excited to learn more here. 

05:37
But what I see as a broad level thing happening is when we understand the nervous system and really understand how these different states can affect us. What I see people take it to mean is that, oh, fear is something that's bad, so I should avoid it. Like, oh, it's harmful for my nervous system. Oh, my nervous system has a response to it and therefore I should avoid it. And as I see that a lot in the chronic pain world of, oh, I'm scared of that movement, so therefore I should take the fear as a sign to stop. But we know that doesn't work, and but there's got to be a balance right. Like, where do you push yourself too much? And so, anyway, that's a. We can probably talk about just those things the whole rest of the time. But I'd love to hear maybe let's actually talk about the science just quickly Like I think most people on here understand the nervous system as a whole, but like let's go into how does fear impact a nervous system? 

06:39 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
So fear is a sign. It's a signal. It's a signal from your brain and your nervous system designed to keep you safe. It's simply, it's an alert system and it's just to get you to take notice, really, and if you can think of it in those simple terms, that it's just your nervous system taking in all of the data around you, which is also far more than we can consciously be aware of, and it's just signaling to you. There's something here to pay attention to and that's it. It's not telling you exactly what to do with that fear. And then the other part of it is is depending upon where you are. 

07:20
Sometimes your fear is warning you and, because of how you've developed, you might have a more intense fear reaction to something that isn't as much of a threat because of your experience over time and how your brain has wired in response to that particular experience. It was super bad for you when you were younger and there's a reason why your brain has decided well, we don't want to go down that path again. It's just trying to keep you safe. But you get to process what that fear means and how you want to respond to it. And also sometimes you have a I like to say it in regular terms, you have a knee-jerk response to the fear and you have a chance to. You're not being hijacked really by your fear but you may be having an automatic response to it that you can interrupt, even if you're already into the fear response and the habitual response you have from the past. 

08:24 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Ok, I love this interruption piece because I think this is so important. 

08:27
What I just feel like harp on all the time with my clients and they come and they're like, oh well, I was doing so well, and then this thing happened and I felt my nervous system get like hijacked and I'm like, yeah, and so we all do Like every day I have a response that I was like, oh, wasn't the response I want to keep having and so therefore, I will shift it or I will pause and be like huh, what's going on here? And it's just this reminder of it's not the knee-jerk reaction happens so instantaneously that, yes, over time there is absolutely opportunity that it will shift, but to me, I'm like that's just a side effect. It should never be the like this is what I need it to shift, or I need to never have this response because that's a bold outcome to shoot for. And then, if it's not happening, then we make ourselves wrong and then just reinforce the response, and I love this reminder of you get to just interrupt the response At any point. 

09:32 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
You could be into that response for an hour and then take the moment and go oh wait, when you have that moment where you're able to say, OK, I don't want to continue on this path, is it even necessary? Is it necessary? Is this really the threat that my body feels like it is? It might not be and to look at it that way and in fairness to everyone who is listening to this, if you, we have received a lot of messages, so I have been doing this. I didn't say this earlier, but I have been coaching and consulting with people on their personal and professional development for over 20 years and so I've seen a lot in the field and what's out there in personal development, and a lot of it is lately, in the last, I would say even 10 years. 

10:23
Is your fear is a liar? You should be fearless, and we've received those messages and internalized them Well. Successful people just do it in spite of their fear and things like that, and they get messages that fear is super negative rather than the gift that it is. And if you can shift that, that fear can be a gift as a messenger and it doesn't have to be fear as a liar. No, it's not a liar. You just get to decide what you're going to do in response to the fear that it's sending you a message. That's it. 

10:58 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, and I know you were talking about these, like the fearlessness bands that people will wear. It's like what do you think of things like that and that message? Like, what do you think it does for people? 

11:07 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
I think it's harmful. I think it ignores your humanity. I like to call it bumper sticker psychology. I think with all of the memes and the quote posts and things like that, it's easy to throw out a one-liner that sounds great in the moment, but when you're facing a real situation in your life and you're dealing with your nervous system and your emotions and your humanity, that's part of what sends you down that self-judgment, self-critical path. That is improper. I think that we need to bring a bit of humanity back to things like fear. 

11:50
You will never see me tell someone that they need to be fearless. I think fearlessness is ridiculous. I was telling you before we started recording that I gave a lecture to law students recently and that was a huge aha moment for them and really a gift. If someone tells and I said, don't tell me that you're fearless, because lawyers, like a lot of other type A people, people who were working really hard they will put on that armor and that mask. I'm not afraid of anything. And I said as soon as you've told me that I don't care if you're the CEO of a company, I don't care if you're the number one, anything on the planet, if you tell me that you're fearless. I know that you haven't come to terms with your humanity around it and you haven't been able to accept that. It's just normal and a beautiful part of who you are is to experience fear on occasion. 

12:46 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, this, coming back to humanity piece, oh gosh, it's like. I feel like it is so like, almost like ironically lost in today's messaging, because I feel like so much is about like it's like and a superficial. They're like, oh, you know, be a human, but then it's like the messaging is like telling people to do the exact opposite and this really like sneaky, sly way and I don't think most people do it intentionally by any means but it really is this messaging of like oh, if you are experiencing these emotions, there's something wrong with your nervous system, right, right. Versus being like oh, this makes sense, and if this response happens to be getting in the way of doing what you want to be doing, there's actually things you can do about it, so you don't need to be stuck there, or it doesn't need to prevent you, right. But it's like if somebody wants to learn how to swim and they feel fear, if that's something you care about and you feel strongly about, there's things you get to do about it. Yes, Versus. 

13:47
I think sometimes this messaging is unintentionally, is giving people like oh well, my body's being like oh, no, I shouldn't learn how to do this. There's something that's wrong. And if I do that I'm going to stress out my nervous system even more and it's like well, you get to decide. What do you care about? Swimming Right, like, is that something you actually want to do? And if no, then who cares? If it is, then then you have an opportunity to learn how to be with the fear and move forward into this thing that you care about. 

14:20 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Absolutely and to put in and to put in guardrail safety Ness for yourself. I love the example of swimming. I usually go to speaking because I was a speaker and some people are afraid of speaking, but many people very easily say, yeah, I'm never getting on a stage, but swimming is one where it there's a little bit more. It's socially. You want to swim, you might, you might feel like or or for safety purposes. Do I learn how to swim, those kinds of things. So I think more people have some fear around it, especially if they're into adulthood and they don't know how to swim. But there are safety things that you can do in response to the fear and the fear. It's healthy. 

15:00
If you don't know how to swim and you are in the ocean or in a pool where it's too deep, your life is threatened. So it's an appropriate response. It is and again that goes back to the messaging it's a warning sign that this is something that you could do, that could harm you, you could drown. So what are you going to do in response to that? Well, maybe you're going to hire a, you're going to take lessons. You're going to hire a coach to teach you how to swim. You're going to get some form of you know a life vest if you're going to get into a boat, something like that, until you have mastered it and you feel better, and even then you probably need a life vest if you're on a boat. Yeah, exactly. 

15:43 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Oh, it's a good thing to, and, as you're saying that swimming example too, or like going into that more. What is coming up for me is also remembering to ask yourself, like, what am I really scared of? Because in this right, it's so easy to be like, of course I'm scared of swimming, I could drown, but it's like, is that really? It might be right, that's makes sense. I think we all jump to kind of the more obvious one which might be there, but I think sometimes, when you start to ask people, it's actually well, no, I'm not scared of the drowning, because I trust that I'm in a pool where I can just stand up, or you don't even mean they're doing it in like a safe environment. I'm scared of being laughed at by other people in the pool. 

16:26
And then all of a sudden, you're like you're dealing with something so different, right, Same thing with speaking. I'm sure it's the same thing of like what actually is the fear about? And getting really curious of like what is the scenario where it's like, oh no, if that happened, then that's why I can't do it? It's like, are you scared of peeing your pants on stage in front of everyone, or are you scared of messing up your words? Right, Like, how you would work through those scenarios would be very different. 

16:53 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely. It's that fear of embarrassment and really digging deep and digging underneath to figure out what it is that's that's causing you to feel like you can't do something. And I think embarrassment with fear of of putting yourself out there, is a really difficult one for people and might bring up shame from the past. They can bring up things like perfectionism If I'm not perfect, I'm not going to do it. I need to be a master immediately and that's I think that there's a lot about that. I think a lot of people think that they have to be amazing at things, and I know. And, by the way, me too. 

17:38 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, you're into somebody here I started. 

17:44 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
I started doing this thing for myself a few years ago, where I would pick something to do on purpose that I would not allow myself to try to be amazing at, and that was really fun. It like released me from that that particular kind of fear, that fear of what if people laugh at me and what if they think I'm not very good, and it was almost like desensitizing myself to feeling that way, like no, I get to go and be. I'm a terrible bowler. I don't bowl very well. There's also X throwing is like a fun thing. People love to do it. I just don't. I just I'm there for the. I'm there. I'm there for the friends, not the, not the, not the bullseye. 

18:33 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I think I tried that once. I was not good at it either. Not good, and I don't ever have to be yeah, and I love that because it's like it's the desensitization piece that's so important, right? It's not that you, it's like I think some people will go about. Oh, I must. In order to get over this fear, I have to be so good so I never experience embarrassment. Versus actually desensitizing yourself to embarrassment and being really bad at something is actually the way more bang for your buck way to work through that one. It'd be a lot more fun, way more fun. And also, how could you ever possibly get good at something if you don't let yourself try and be bad at it? Yes, if you want it to get good at it. 

19:20 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
And yet that's not the message. I mean, that's not the message that's out there. Well, I shouldn't say that's not the message that's out there. I think there are. Some people are out there. There are. You can make mistakes, let yourself fail, all of those kinds of things, but I think it's really embedded for a very long time. 

19:37 - Andrea Moore (Host)
You have to be amazing, yes, and you have to be amazing at everything that you're going to put out there in order for you to be valuable, even and that's craziness- and I think we see it too, because I think, with social media, that messaging, even if there's someone that's like make mistakes and do all that stuff which is great, because I do think that it exists you then turn around and see someone being torn apart for making one tiny mistake, right, like, oh, that person said this one thing, or you know that person wore something that was, oh, we didn't like it, or yes, whatever it might be. And so it's like you're now witnessing on social media or maybe you even are a part of it on social media where you are judging the crap out of someone, or you're just seeing someone be judged for making a mistake, or maybe it wasn't even a mistake, it was just being straight up judged for being themselves right, right. 

20:39 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
What was she thinking? And maybe she loved. What was she thinking for what she was wearing, like as if that was the worst possible critical error a person can make, and rather than sitting there and saying, well, I don't like that, I wouldn't wear that, but good for her, letting it go like not even wasting your energy on that, right exactly, or you'll see it when people will pull a sound clip right from someone that they're having. 

21:08 - Andrea Moore (Host)
In a conversation like this, in a podcast, where it's like things are free, flowing right, like in our conversations with people, we all say that. I'm pretty sure we can all know that if every conversation we had that was recorded and someone took soundbites and posted it on the internet, oh my god, it'd be canceled in half a second. Absolutely, because we need to be able to one have conversations that are not being analyzed by people, because that's how we are as people, and even in conversations, we're like I am recording this right now, and someone could probably pull a soundbite of something I said. That's one taken out of context, or taken out of the context of who I am, because I think I see that is sometimes a convert, like what they said is like oh, or what I'm saying is like oh, I believe that thing, and when you know nothing else about the person, it makes them look really bad. 

22:05
But then, when you get to know their wholeness and why they said that, why they stand for office, and you're like oh, that makes so much sense with everything else, absolutely, and I think this, though, leads to so much more, at least for me. I know I notice it myself of like I am fearful at times to put things up. I mean, I'm fearful a lot of times to put things out of there because I'm like, oh, if someone doesn't understand what else I'm about to put in there, they haven't seen me say this or this piece, yes, is going to get misconstrue, but on Instagram you get like 60 seconds to talk. Like I can't sit here and tell you my whole entire life philosophy and a sound clip that's right. 

22:43 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
That's interesting. I recently I don't know if you say I can, but I just recently got slammed on social media because I used the word healing and it went in like prove it, prove that you're a healer. And I was like, oh, that's not what I said. Wow, they knew I was the healer and they were it was. Are you going into hospitals? Are you healing people? And then even that so it's funny because I'll bring it back to fear there was a moment where I had that rising in me too Immediately, like what did other people? I started going down that path and my thought process started going down that path and I felt a little sick to my stomach. Do people think that I'm talking about myself in that way? What is, what does this mean? All of that kind of stuff. And then, and then I did the interrupt. Okay, I'm going to interrupt myself right now. I'm going to delete that comment. 

23:36 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes. 

23:38 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
It's a conversation that's not worth having. It's not, it's not what I meant. This is not worth my energy if it just and it was just very, very simple. It was simple enough. And then there's times where I've had people take things out of context and I've let it sit. I I one time during I think it was during the pandemic I wrote, I wrote I was being a little snarky, but I wrote the word excellence is easy, like I did that on a post and people went berserk. I had hundreds of comments. Some people were agreeing and some people weren't, but they didn't understand in the context of what I was trying to say, just like you said, what what I meant by that, and what I meant by that is excellence is and if I had extended it, excellence is easier than perfectionism. Mm-hmm, that is what I meant by it. But people went crazy and I let it sit because the conversation was worthwhile having once I like got over the fact that there were people who were letting people just rip me to shreds. 

24:41 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Oh my gosh. Yeah, I think it's so interesting, right Cause anytime you see a post that just like like flares up your system, it's always like huh, why, what is this about? Right? And sometimes it's like, no, this person's just wrong and I'm pissed that you're putting like enforcing this information. Right Cause I'll see posts like that where I'm like that's literally like the science does not support what you're saying and like the research doesn't support. And now I'm pissed that you're putting out misinformation so I'll be mad about it. But other times there is, there is some gold in there of oh, this is hitting all the spots in me, right, that are looking to hear something different. 

25:23 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
And I don't know about you, but sometimes I feel that a few days later, well, I'm out on a walk. Oh well, maybe that was more about me. 

25:34 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Absolutely, it is always. It's like right, it's like after the like, I'll like be stewing about it or I gotta like vent about it or think about it, and then you're like got it. I feel like we have no room anymore to to have that pause. Everything is so quick, quick, quick, like react, react, react, and then it's like move on. Next thing, right. And so it's like if you're constantly like scrolling and then it's the next thing and it's the next thing that you're getting outraged about, then it's there's no room to actually just sit and have that space to be like huh, let me let that simmer. 

26:10 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Absolutely no question. I love pause. We don't get enough of it. 

26:16 - Andrea Moore (Host)
We don't, we really don't, and I also think we don't allow people to be where they're at on their journeys too, and like I can see sometimes where there's certain posts out there where it's like they, like you know, trigger about my system and I'm like there are ones where I'll now be like I'm going to get that in like two years, like I'm not, like I can see where they're going with it and I'm not. I'm not anywhere near that mindset, but I'm. I can see like that's kind of like a goal and I'm like going to give myself so much space to get there, cause it's like I know, I'm like I know where I am. 

26:57 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Yeah, I love that. I think that's really important self-awareness, and to even think about that, that that might be. Yes, that's where I want to be. Or even the other way too. Yes, no need for me to go in and correct, but I think sometimes that's what people are doing as well. They, they go in and they try to correct someone where they're earlier in their, on their journey. 

27:24
Yeah, absolutely. They've just really started and they've just really started looking into so. Your platform is so much about the nervous system and that's being talked about thank goodness, a lot more. But for many people it's still a brand new concept and if they start talking about it but they're not as fully versed in the material or how it applies to them, they might say something that might be not fully fleshed out. And there's also you can let someone be with that- Exactly, I see it. 

28:04 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I feel like do you have kids? I do. I have two teenagers, okay. So I feel like I have an almost seven year old and I had to do a whole apology to my sister, a formal apology, I mean formal air quotes apology to my sister, probably when my kid was like four, to be like, wow, I was so judgmental of you when I did not have children, or I was so judgmental of your parenting, and it's like I see this now. You know every now and then I'll get like served up somebody with a newborn of like how, here's how I'm gonna do, and I'm like sure, honey, sure that's what you're gonna do and you know what you get. 

28:44
To keep thinking that and I don't need to come in and correct you because I was there too and I get it, and it'll shift, because you don't need to know the next thing yet because you're not there yet, yes, yes. Or same thing with these like 20 year old, like fitness influencers, right, I get that. I have no issue with, like you know, maybe some of our millennials that are kind of making fun of them, like kindly right, like just joshing them in the background, right, but don't go and attack them on their page, like no, they don't know any better cause they are 20. And yes, they do get to do whatever they want and look amazing and have perky little butts and boobs and like have zero issue, and they get to enjoy the shit out of that. Because guess what I did too. Yes, yes, same thing. 

29:29 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Don't take it away from them, let them. I mentioned I used to own a gym at one point and I owned my gym in. So I was in my 40s. I'm now I'm almost 51. And it's so interesting that I'm now in a stage of life where menopause fun topic is in my world, and when I look back at things that I said and I feel bad about. 

29:58
I feel bad about some of the things that I said while I'm older and I you know I can do this and you can still do this when you're older. Yes, but now I have a different context. Yes, also about there are things that are shifting biologically for me and that means the way that I do things are different and and honoring that as well. And so I love what you're saying about honoring all the stages and recognizing. You know there are some people who I think it's like 15% of women in particular will not really experience any of the symptoms. Wow, and so that's cool and congratulations If you're not going to be someone. But I think there's also that. So it's not only the stage, but recognizing that we could be in exactly the same stage and have a very different experience as well. Give people the compassion for letting them have their experience, which might be different from your own. 

30:59 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Exactly, yes, exactly, because that's what makes humans human right Is that we're all so different and we all bring this is something that I've, like have really been, I think, seeping into is like we all bring this little bit of like magic into the world, yes, and? And then it's like what? And I think about this a lot in terms of like, what does that mean for an an like an Instagram front business, right, like somebody who's bringing in this, this one message, and we'll just go with fitness, just because it's an easy one, right? So if someone, if their special sauce is fitness, right, then it's like, and they're running a business, it's like all they're going to post about is fitness, right, and then they're going to have probably a very consistent message that they're sharing. It doesn't mean that that's all they're about and that's all they do and that you need to have. And even if, even if they are someone who's like I you know, I do these exercises, like I have a 20 minute morning routine and then I do, you know, I have a 20 minute wake up routine and then I get up from my desk and I have like another 30 minute like mobility thing, and then I do my workout, like maybe they're like routine is insane, like in terms of your life, but it's like they get to have that because that's what they bring and it's amplified. 

32:22
But you get to just take the bits and pieces and the little magic that they're sharing and bring it into your life, when maybe that just means you have 15 minutes a day that you move, right. But it's like they they kind of are showing this really big overview, amplification of it. It doesn't mean you need to do it in that way, because then you're listening to someone else who does breathwork right, kind of in this amplified way, and someone else who talks about nutrition in this amplified way, and someone who talks about the nervous system, and then all of a sudden you're like wow, now I have 10 hours a day filled with Instagram routines or routines that I'm supposed to do, versus being like no, they're just like it's. It's through them that that gets to be brought to the world. So they amplify it. Right, they don't have to like change the arts, not what they do all day either, though. 

33:13
Like right, yeah, on my Instagram it's like I tend to only talk about chronic pain. It's like well, I think about it a lot, I think about the nervous system all the time, but like, or I think about, I think about humanness all the time. Actually, I would like to really like to copy that. It's humanness. But I go out, I spend time with my kids, I do dumb shit, I do random things you know what I mean Like all day long. I have a very boring life where I do stuff around the house, right, it's like that's all part of my day. You just don't see that. 

33:44 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Right, and there might even be things that you like that nobody knows about. That get to be just yours, and especially if you are someone who happens to be promote, you have a personal brand in some way out on social media. 

33:58
I love the idea that you're the reminder that, whoever we're following, they have a life outside of that and that that's their work, that's their message that they're sharing and it falls within a larger scope. So I was thinking about while you were talking a little bit it popped in, is, I think, sometimes part of that like jumping on people who have one message sometimes is about that fear or that self-judgment that you might have that you're doing it wrong. 

34:30 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes. 

34:30 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
And if you can point out where they're not exactly consistent with their message or where they're not being real because they didn't share something. I think that sometimes that's actually about something more internal, if I wanted you know. Or the idea that while they're being too aggressive in their workouts, for example, because then if you can criticize what they're doing, then it validates what you're doing, whereas both can exist, both can be valid for different reasons, and then that can calm down, like an unnecessary or like a maladaptive, like your response, the fear that you're not doing something well enough or doing it the way you should, or getting it right, so to speak. 

35:20 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Mm, hmm, yeah, and it's like, oh man, I think that so goes into the like what is the fear really about? And it's like, does the fear actually have anything to do with exercise or is it I'm just fear I'm not good enough, right, or not hate doing it, right? Well, I think that is, oh, probably about a year ago I and I feel like I actually haven't talked about it because I feel like it's still something I'm still flushing out for myself is I was striving for so long through inner work to feel good enough, right, it's like. I feel like that is such a core wound for so many like I'm, like I don't know who doesn't sort of have that at someplace, right, it's like so many things come back down to that. When you really like trace down fears is like not good enough. 

36:16
And so I started operating from this place of like what if I'm not good enough? So who cares? Like, why is that such a big deal? Right? Like what if I don't exercise good enough? What if my post kind of sucks? Like what if I'm not saying that good enough, like? So it's almost like being like working with that fear, like kind of with a fear of embarrassment, rather than try to be like I'm going to be so perfect so I never embarrassed myself. It's kind of like, well, I'm just going to totally accept the fact that I'm not good enough, and so therefore, who cares Like, why is that such a big deal? 

36:55
Who cares, right, that's a really great one, I love that Because otherwise we I feel like what I found myself doing is like trying to have perfectionism around feeling good enough. Oh my gosh. Like it's only like, only until I feel good enough can I say this thing, right. 

37:17 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Yes, it's so funny how it's all like intertwined and then even as you were, as you were talking about it, I saw some of that in myself as well. At various times I had little like versions of me popping up, and not that I have it all together. I definitely don't always like no, but yes, nobody does, so there's always like a layer of the onion to pull back. But I love that idea. What if I can, just what if I can just not be good enough? So it's not, I'm perfect as I am. It's almost like that switch shift in the language, because that's still embracing perfectionism. 

37:53 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah. 

37:54 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
I'm a lot. 

37:55 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, I go with, I'm whole and I very much have that. So my, I guess, belief is on a right. I feel like we operate on like a spiritual plane and then we operate on a human plane. Yes, very much like to work with a human plane, like I'm not, I love spirituality, but like I think there's people who work on like a far more spiritual plane, but I feel like that leads to a lot of spiritual bypassing and like the human plane. 

38:20
And a lot of like, oh, I'm better than you, I'm going to sit on my mountaintop and just judge everyone for fighting or for whatever, and it's like, yeah, but not everyone can sit on a mountaintop. We got a function in the human plane and so my belief is from like a spiritual level, we are all perfectly whole, of course, like there's no other option, like you can take the worst terrorist in the world and I'm like they were on a spiritual level, like they are perfectly whole. 

38:52 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
That's. That's a tough one for a lot of to embrace. 

38:56 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, but because I actually like really did a lot of work around that Mm. Hmm, that now I'm like that concepts kind of boring to me. I'm like, okay, so we're all like this, we're all like starting from the same thing. So it's like actually to me how you show up in the human plane. That is where you have a lot of play and choice and opportunity. 

39:18 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Right and to go back, acknowledge the spirituality, acknowledge the whole, but where is it? Where are you not showing up whole? 

39:27 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Exactly Because also, it means I think some of it. Yeah, I think sometimes people take the spiritual concept and I'm like I don't think you can always apply it to the human level, because if someone's showing up and being an asshole or murdering people, I'm sorry, you're being an app like right, you're a bad person, you are showing up as a bat. It doesn't change the fact that you are spiritually whole and perfect, though that's right. 

39:47 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
that's why we have forgiveness, apologies that we need to you can always come back. 

39:53 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I feel like everyone always has the potential to find their way back to that, but like right now, like you are not living up to that at all. 

40:02 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
What do you think about the idea that in a lot of, in a lot of personal development, I think that people are talking about things like the focus more just on the mindset, or they look at it like a moral failing, like a discipline kind of a scenario. 

40:22
So if you are not trying to be good enough for not even good enough, if you're not trying to be amazing, you're not trying to optimize everything and perform at the very highest level, if you are not at 100% or 110%, you have some sort of moral failing. This is one of the things that I've been thinking about is this whole concept of you need to be 100%, you need to be 110%, and if you're not trying to do that in all aspects of your life, then you're not here, not a you aren't good enough, like there's something like morally wrong, like it goes to that level, and I feel like that kind of is like a way some people are trying to tap into the spirituality, like if you were really whole, and I think it gets really confusing for a lot of people. Where do I, what do I need to be doing to prove that I am all? 

41:22 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, so this is. It's such a great question. I think so much comes back to realizing everybody's here to bring a different message, and I think some people might need to lovingly check how they're bringing the message in Right, because, like I follow this one, I can't think of his name, so I can't get, but he talks about obsession. His name is Zach, I can't remember, but I love his. Do you know who he is or do you know I'm talking about? I don't. Anyways, I can. 

42:01
If I remember, I'll put him in the show notes and give him credit, but he, I haven't followed him very long. I kind of recently came across his stuff, but he just talks about being like so obsessed with one thing, and his like one thing happens to be running right now, but it's not really the lens. He, I mean he does talk about running, but I don't care about running, it's not what I'm obsessed with at all. But he talks about being like so, like into something right, and it's this really, really intense message. Like he's like I won't, you know, I'll barely sleep, I'll barely whatever, and I just obsessed, obsessed, obsessed. And I think had I seen that five years ago to be like, wow, something seriously, seriously wrong with you, like you're going to crash and burnt and he might. He actually might totally my crashing right. It's none of my damn business, though, because when I read his post, it lights a fire in me. About who do I really care about? Right again, it's like I'm taking the little piece of his message. I don't need to take it to the extreme of like I'm not going to sleep or eat to send my message on the world, because that's not right for me, but I'm like I could have more of a fire around, like I could be more obsessed with what I do. I could put it out in the world differently, or at a, at a at a bigger intensity, because I want to Right, like his message speaks to me, because I want to do that, and so I think you have these people who talk about excellence, and I think right now, it's a really important message for people to hear, because I actually think, as a culture we are, we have almost switched to the opposite of, I feel, kind of very broad scale. 

43:37
We have a lot of apathy, like a lot of, because excellence and perfectionism and pressure has been so big and kind of maybe not in the best way, hasn't been sent in the best ways, right, it's like just burned everybody out and now everyone's burned out from like pandemic, from like the world, from social media and trying to figure out a world that has this like completely new way of being. I think people are like, oh, thank God, I can just like I'm going to just latch on to the messaging that talks about rest, not because rest isn't important, because it's extremely important, but they're not latching onto it for that reason. They're latching it onto it to give themselves like a pass from actually showing up in the world. Yes, as the way. 

44:23 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Pendulum has swung all the way to the other side. 

44:25 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, I really feel like, as humans, we need to be pushed, but in an appropriate way for us. And that's going to look and I work with people chronic pain, so that my look so right to someone I'm working with who I think might need to be pushed in this lovingly, gentle way might be like walk a block today. You know what I mean. It doesn't have to be this intensity, whereas someone who's operating at like a Like what he talks about, he's like, but he might be like his pushing himself, is running 20 miles a day. But I'm like it, you just it's what's what's the push for you, because our brains are always going to pick what is comfortable and what is familiar and what takes the least amount of energy. And I think there's this. We have such like two such conflicting messages of, we think, a lot of people, clients. 

45:23
I have grew up with very strict, hard parents at least I did who really really pushed them in ways and then they were never. They didn't have a soft place to land in that push. There was no grace in it, there was no compassion in it. It was like for me it was like I brought home a 99%. I was like why did you get the 100% Right. There was no like over proud of you, like there was a complete lack of that, and so I swung into like, oh my gosh, let myself like do the bare minimum and like love myself through that all, but now I feel like I'm entering this new phase of like yeah, I don't want to stay there, though. Like I got more to bring to the world and like I do need someone to like to fire under my ass and push me, because it's so much easier to just, at the end of a day, be like I had a hard day, I'm tired. I can just watch Netflix instead of folding my laundry. 

46:20 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
You know what I mean. It's so interesting because I definitely, I definitely struggle with this in some ways, because so many of the people who come to me are in a state of, like, serious burnout, and so the answer for that is often a rest that feels very uncomfortable for them, or a bit of a time that feels very uncomfortable for them, and so I think it's. I think it might be who's coming to you like where? Right again. So it goes back to what we were talking about before, like what stage are you at? Yes, I so when I so in the gym, we'll bring it back to fitness. I think it's a great easy analogy. 

47:00
I've heard, I've heard, the phrase of your. Your mind quits before your body does, and I remember looking to one of my partners at the time and I said that message doesn't apply to me because of the way that I have operated my whole life. I will push myself past those limits to injury. Yes, and so it's. I think that there might even be like some self-awareness of where are you at, are you someone who always pushes past limits and that's been your habit, that's what you've done just to survive and to function. Then maybe backing off a little bit more is the right message, at least for some time. But then, like, at what point is it that you go? Oh yeah, now I'm ready to start going again At what point have you powered down enough to be able to power back up? And I think that that's not always like the easiest to do without some guidance. Like you were even saying the language I don't know if you caught it, but you were saying like I need somebody to like light the fire or something. 

48:07
It doesn't necessarily mean that you need to hire some a person, but it might need me and listening to the podcast from the guy who is obsessed or I always think of in my world, david Goggins. Are you familiar with him? I know the name but I can't place it. Yeah, he's a Navy SEAL. He has a. He has. He doesn't have a podcast. He actually very rarely goes on a podcast. It's very interesting, but he's done these crazy endurance races he ran with with stress, fractures on his leg, and his message is always like you can keep going and I. I both love parts of his message and also think parts of his message are really harmful, and I don't, I don't. So I like where I've grown to at this point is that I'm looking for sustainability and that sometimes that might mean that I'm going to go harder and I might be 100% and sometimes there might be an 80%, and 80% is great. And I remember reading, and I remember reading somewhere, that most of the people who are really, really successful they're, they're averaging out to about 85%. 

49:20 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, I love that. I think it's so important. I think I talked about this with balance too, of like balance doesn't mean every single day you're perfectly balanced. It's like, yeah, it's like maybe you went super hard, you know. It's like I'm like a procrastinator, so it's like leading up to like a webinar from giving a talk, right, I'm like pounding it out like the day beforehand, but then like probably the day after it. Or if it's like if it's a morning thing, right, it's like I'm probably doing jack shit for the rest of the day, because and I'm not someone who would like to make it very clear to everyone listening is, I am not someone who defaults to overdoing things. 

49:56
And this is where I think what you said is the self awareness piece. I am so the person that my mind quits before my body, and I know that about myself, though. Like I am so the like okay, I'm tired. I'm more likely to fall into that camp than the overworking camp, because I and I didn't I don't think that was. I don't know, I really can't actually decide if that was always true for me or not, but I kind of think it was. 

50:25
I came from like two insanely hardworking, overworking parents. I think I just swung the opposite way. I was like I don't ever want to do this. This is insane. And so like I've never been like a hardcore overworking. It doesn't mean I don't work hard at times, right, but like I'm, I remember even in college, right, it's like if I had a big test and I knew I needed to study, I'm always like no sleep's more important than studying. Like I'm like I will get more out of having a good night's rest than like I was just always like that I would probably be the person who, like stuck my like book under my pillow and was, like hopefully I'll absorb some stuff, right, Like, so I think the self awareness piece is by far the most important piece. 

51:06
Yeah, because if you don't have self awareness of who you are, there are people who are like, who might be like you, jen, who are totally. They can go push way past and into injury, but they are still so hard on themselves that they think that they're being weak, right, it's like that they don't have that awareness. Or there's people like me who and I see this on some of my clients and I get both sides, I get, I get both sides of people and the advice I give is I'm not the advice, because I'm like I don't like sit here and give advice, right, like where their body's guide to go is whole or opposite, but it's right for them. But it's like I have people who think that they are overdoing it and they're not like what they are doing is completely safe and acceptable and within their body's capacity. And we look at the whole like, right, this is, I'm sitting down one on one to help people. 

51:59
This is not done in one session. This is like over time. We are evaluating this and it's like, yeah, you're really not overdoing it. Your body is recovering it exactly as it should. That soreness you feel is in the exact right places is completely normal for that workout. It doesn't mean you overdid it. But if somebody has fear around soreness or is super sensitive to their body's sensations, they might think that that's wrong. Yes, yes, no, there's just yeah, it's a self, self awareness. But also, I think a lot of times, if you've been disconnected from your body, you need help with the self awareness. At least, I sure as hell did. 

52:41 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
So that's so interesting that you say that. So you see the dis. Well, maybe you, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth. 

52:47 - Andrea Moore (Host)
No, no, say what you think. 

52:48 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
You see the disconnection from your body as making people hold themselves back more. So my personal experience that okay, because my personal experience for myself and when I was in the gym and I would watch people, there were people. It's funny now that we're talking about it, I can now see the spectrum, the people that know you can do more, you can absolutely do more. And then there were those like it's time for a break. But now been in the gym seven days and for three weeks, and on three of those days every week you've done a double. So you're not allowed back. Seriously, you're not allowed to be here. And I will also say for myself it was, it was the same thing. I absolutely need people in my life who will lovingly tell me it's time for you to take a bigger break than you think that you need, because you're actually harming yourself and I so I know that you. Obviously. 

53:52
This is the you know the chronic a podcast about chronic pain. 

53:56
We didn't even talk about any of that, but there have been times in my life that I have had. 

54:03
I have had pain, physical pain, and what's interesting for me is I'm one of those people who doesn't really connect to the pain, so that when I have pain I'm like, oh no, do I need to go to the hospital because I shouldn't have pain? And so I I have and I don't know. I haven't been able to like completely unwind that. But one of my business partners was a physician and he would comment that it's a little bit surprising how long you can go under clear physical pain without acknowledging it. I'm on that spectrum, in that zone, and that had I will also say, for anyone is listening, that's not something, that's not good. I'm not talking about it like it's good or wearing it like it's a badge of honor. I continue to pay the price for some of the injuries that I've caused to myself and still and I also too know that some of the overdoing over the overs, any of them has impacted me and with some health conditions as well Over time. 

55:10 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yeah, yeah, People, I think you're. I mean it's such a spectrum and like knowing where you are on that spectrum and I think having I love that. You're like having someone else come and be like you need a rest, because sometimes you really need that like objective evaluation of ourselves, because we aren't always good at it. And you said something about, like when you were asking of oh, you find people who have, who are disconnected from their bodies, are actually you know, I see a lot of people who have disconnection from their bodies and under do it. 

55:48 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Right. 

55:49 - Andrea Moore (Host)
It's like I see people who have disconnected their body and overdo it Absolutely. Yeah, but I think what people mistake a connection to their bodies in the way I mean it is you're connected to yourself, like your own body's wisdom is not the same as being connected to every sensation and feeling your body feels. Got it Because it goes right back into the fear conversation of. There are people who I think really do, are like and I think I'm one of them I'm like very hyper sensitive and hyper aware of feelings in my body, right, and when the fear comes in, it's like it's a very intense feeling for something that is mismatched. So what I have had to learn is like it's mismatched, right, like, yes, this feels intense in my body, but I can then right it's like saying, oh, this is a big fear isn't where the connection stops, right, I could be very connected to the intensity of the feeling, but disconnected to like the wisdom behind it. Yeah, I don't know if I've ever thought about it quite in that way, so it's actually helpful for me. 

57:02 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
I don't know that I've ever thought about it that way either. I love that. 

57:06 - Andrea Moore (Host)
It's like we have to be very connected to the sensations, right, like soreness is a great example in chronic pain, and I saw this all the time in the clinic. People would be like but there's pain here and that you know, maybe we'd be doing like a glute bridge and it's. I'm like where's the pain? And they would point to their butt. I'm like but that's not. Like, it's not, that's a muscle contraction, right. And then and again, this is these are people I'm seeing and it's like in every exercise, right, they'd be doing a step up, oh, my quad hurts. And it's like they're pointing to their muscle bellies and it's like that's not really what like, right, like that's what you're feeling, or what you are reacting to is the sensation of your muscles contracting. And even if it is more intense for that person because obviously I can't experience what they're feeling right, it's a safe place to be feeling that because it's appropriate for what you're doing. 

57:56
It makes perfect sense and you're doing like a step up and you have sharp shooting pain in your knee. We want to check that out a little differently, yeah, but it's like we can't. We can be very connected to the sensations, both physically and emotionally, our body is sending to us, but we have to know how to interpret them through our body's wisdom, and I think that's the piece a lot of people are missing. 

58:23 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I'd like to that you were bringing into, like the emotion versus the physical, and and a lot of what we're talking about is to like how it's showing up physical, but Like the fear about other emotions too might be set up as well, so that that comes in, I know. 

58:48
So for me, I've such a high tolerance and like for me personally, I had a very high tolerance for physical pain and virtually no tolerance for emotional yes, like the other direction. And then I certainly see that with my clients as well, like when they're coming to me, for whatever it is that they're coming to me that they will also have, they'll have something similar, or they might be able to be more turned on as well, like there can be like an opposite, be able to feel the physical more than the emotional or vice versa, and then how fear comes in to play with that and sometimes that fear you just don't want to feel it. So sometimes our behaviors are more about how can I minimize my exposure to this feeling. So I think actually the overdoing and the perfectionism that a lot of people have is because they fear the negative emotions that they might feel, like embarrassment. So perfectionism, for example, or overdoing, is really about avoiding feeling emotions. 

01:00:07 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Totally. Oh, yes, I think that is such a huge, huge, important piece there is. Oh, we just resist and fear feeling certain things. 

01:00:22 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Yes, so much. Yeah, it could be even people who resist feeling grief, or resist feeling the embarrassment, like I said, or resist feeling frustration that's when I think they go into toxic positivity sometimes or resist feeling anger, especially because anger is treated as such a negative emotion that you don't even want to experience anger. And again that goes back to, I guess, that underlying theme that we've been talking about the whole time it's about being human. Yes, so I just thought perfectionism is about trying to deny your humanness. 

01:01:03
Oh so good, yeah, and I'm a recovering perfectionist, so same. And if you continue on that path, I do think it shows up. I do think you get warning signs If you refuse to acknowledge your emotions, just like me, my first physical manifestation of something was happening and I was ignoring. I was trying not to feel and trying to be perfect, started with the uncontrollable eye twitch that I couldn't stop when I was. 

01:01:33
And I was like what is happening here and I will also be honest that I think that some of the lack of sleep was good contributor to that. It wasn't just the denying emotions. It's all linked, though right, absolutely, and so I do think that the attempt to not feel emotions is a huge player, and because fear is an emotion too, but we fear the emotion, the other emotions. 

01:02:03 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Oh, totally. I love talking about layers and it's like there's fear of the fear, of the shame, of the guilt. It's like, and I'm always like, go back, keep going to. Which is the layer you can be like OK, I can be here and you just got to start there and it's like and that fear is like buddies with judgment. 

01:02:21 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Oh my gosh. And judgment, come along for the ride. 

01:02:24 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Totally. Oh, I love, I love thinking of like you, of emotions, as like little people. So I love that you said like buddies, it's like linking arms, it's so true. 

01:02:34 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
There's that great Pixar movie. I'm blanking on what it's called in all the inside out, inside out. 

01:02:39 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I love that movie. It was so good. It's so good. I like ball. Every single time it's like you need them all you do. You eat the sadness with the joy. 

01:02:52 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
That's right. And the anger? Yes, you need the anger, you need all of it. And you do need the fear. I mean to just bring it back full circle. You need the fear. 

01:03:04 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Yes, Otherwise your anger is jump off cliffs without a bungee cord, oh OK. 

01:03:10 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
It's you need the fear. The fear is a gift. The fear is a messenger. The fear is there to help guide you, like on your path to like the next part, and sometimes it's legitimately there to protect you. I love that we have those moments when I look in my life too that the hair stands up on the back of your neck. 

01:03:30
And what actions did I take in that moment? Because I chose to honor that fear in that moment. And how did I save myself in ways I don't even know. It's probably happened countless times. 

01:03:41 - Andrea Moore (Host)
Oh my gosh. Yeah, you can't even begin to know sometimes, because your body reacts so quickly. 

01:03:46 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, so that's how I love to see fear Is that fear is a gift, and I would never want to be fearless. 

01:03:56 - Andrea Moore (Host)
I think that is such a perfect place to end Such a powerful message. If you want to tell people where they can find you and maybe see more about your work, feel free to share that, and I'll put things in the show notes as well. 

01:04:11 - Jen Grosso (Guest)
Sure, one of the best places to find me right now is on LinkedIn. Jennifer Grosso, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can also find me I'm not on there as much, but Instagram, gengrossoco you can find me there. And my company name which I realized I never said is the Bold Fire Institute, and we love to help people grow and to help them avoid a lot of the stress and burnout, and our work is very, very well-being focused. So I just love the opportunity to have this kind of a conversation with you today, because it's so much about being well and I appreciate you and the work that you do and I love your podcast. 

01:04:50 - Andrea Moore (Host)
So thank, you so much for having me here. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for being here. So such a great conversation.